More Life

Yeah, the love-interest bit is the part that I meant about being totally lame and needing to be ignored. Obviously. Except perhaps as further evidence of the Doctor still Not Getting It.

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I just believe him so much more when he says "You bore me!" than his whole Anakin/Vader in Ep 3 'Nooooooo'! scream when she shuffles off the mortal coil.

Also, his whole 'standing above me in the dark holding a dinner knife' speech to the Doctor? ...am I nuts or was that /way/ hot?

And thank /god/ he thinks Death is a little full of shit, b/c sometimes Seven's giant, mythic THING kind of annoys me-- I dunno, how do you feel about the whole issue? For me the Archetypes Leik Woah/Inclusion of the Epic strains my patience? They're already doing /enough/ on an epic scale, aren't they? Why throw in all this Champions bit on top?

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Also, his whole 'standing above me in the dark holding a dinner knife' speech to the Doctor? ...am I nuts or was that /way/ hot?

Burning, burning hot. They are in the dark. With a knife. He's on *top* of him. He's refusing to kill him because he loves him too much. Can they please make out now?

Re: Jaqueline - I thought she made sense as his friend, and I thought that both Victor and Jaqueline made sense as the sort of people the Master could be friends with. The True Implausible Love thing really only makes sense as the Doctor really, really, badly wanting the Master to love someone other than him, because he knows how badly he's failed the Master and thinks maybe if he loved someone else he'd be ok. The Doctor wanting this enough to pretend it's true, and the Master loving the Doctor enough to try to believe it for his sake. Which is the thing about the audio that makes the *most* sense to me: just how much horrific stuff the Master is willing to believe about himself because the Doctor needs him to believe it.

I dig archetypes, but the Death's Champion thing felt a bit empty to me. Rather than kill more teal deal, I'll point you to my conversation with

selenak about the audio:

http://selenak.livejournal.com/375744.html

(Warning: the discussion contains spoilers for the truly excellent 'Sympathy for the Devil', which also has some great Doctor/Master moments. If you would like to avoid being exposed to these spoilers I can cut&paste to here.)

But basically: I can totally get behind the idea that the Doctor and the Master divided up roles in childhood, that one would be Good and the other Evil, and that they both thought (correctly or not) that this was important. And that the Master took the Evil role because he was stronger, and also because, when it came down to it, he was willing to do more for the Doctor than the Doctor was willing to do for him.

That's how I read the ending: the Master takes on the role of Death's Champion to save the Doctor from it.

Master: If Death hadn't come between us, would you still want to be my friend?
Doctor: There's no one I want to be friends with more than you.
Master: Then I know what I must do.

*dies* There may possibly be another way to read that exchange other than "I am willing to entirely destroy myself for you with no other compensation than a declaration of love that I won't even remember", but I can't imagine what such a reading would be.

The Doctor at the end, I think, faces the same choice. Will he kill an innocent person to take on the role of Death's Champion so the Master doesn't have to? He thinks he will, but then he doesn't, and all he's left with is a (empty?) promise to save the Master one day.

Now where this all falls down is that we don't see what the Master is doing for Death that Death (or the Universe) particularly needs. That's why I left Death out of my story altogether (although she was in a previous version) and made it that what the Master was destroying herself to preserve was her (and the Doctor's) belief that the Doctor was, of the two of them, the one that was Good. But to do that, given that they had a dead body between them, she had to imagine herself as completely morally responsible, and therefore Evil. (And damn, the more I think about my odd little story the more I think I have to rewrite it to make clear what I'm trying to say.)

And yeah, I liked that the Master was all, "this is shit." It made it really, really clear that this was all a story that the Doctor was telling for his own purposes, because he likes to use archetypes to explain things. I do like to think that in the intervening 900 years the Master's grown beyond understanding his life as a response to the Doctor's moral cowardice.

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So LJ just ATE my epically long reply. Godammit. I'll try this again tomorrow, when I'm not annoyed. So long!

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bagheera-san.livejournal.com

I've never listened to an audio before and I'm not sure if I want to... the plot sounds a bit... interesting. I assume McCoy voices Seven, who voices the Master?

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I loved it and strongly recommend it. And yeah almost the only thing that happens is that the Doctor and the Master talk, but dude, isn't that enough?

Yes, it's McCoy as Seven and Beevers (from 'Keeper of Traken') as the Master.

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Beevers

Which is much better than I initially thought it would be, as I didn't have fond memories of his voice from the show.

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prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com

Hmmm, haven't listened to that one, because I knew the basic plot and feared it.

My first reaction to the whole layout of the episode is, "Dude, that totally reminds me of Lovecraft's "Through the Gates of the Silver Key," where everybody sits and listens to this wild tale about people turning into aliens and stuff and then the character in question reveals it's all true and escapes in a teleporting grandfather clock.

My second reaction is, as it has always been to the "This-or-that Champion" stuff, bunk! Really, who thinks that the Doctor and the Master aren't grand and epic enough on their ownselves? Why do they need to be representing great cosmic forces that aren't them? Pfffffft to that, I say!

But on the other hand, my understanding that the story contains exactly what you've described has been a big temptation.

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Burning, burning hot. They are in the dark. With a knife. He's on *top* of him. He's refusing to kill him because he loves him too much. Can they please make out now?

The entire Love vs. Death plan is thrown off when Seven gives up and just does him, or John decides there's something behind the whole 'I immediately feel really incredibly close to you' thing that isn't just a friendly connection and wants to do something about it. That scene escalates into sex so. easily. Someone needs to write that, b/c I need to read it.

Re: Jaqueline - I thought she made sense as his friend, and I thought that both Victor and Jaqueline made sense as the sort of people the Master could be friends with.

I thought the Victor as serial killer thing could have been handled better in the script? It's certainly interesting, and Seven does make a gesture at setting us up for it, but it's not necessarily working for me as anything more than a flash in the corner to provide balance against all the Doctor-John plot?

And I like Jacqueline as a character/as interested in him from a one-sided way, I just don't believe his sudden revelation that he's interested in her too? And that that interest is Twu Love on both sides rather than a crush brewing from marital dissatisfaction/friendship on her side and ...something? I don't even know what? on his? Liking her as a person DNE a desire to be with her romantically 4eva.

The True Implausible Love thing really only makes sense as the Doctor really, really, badly wanting the Master to love someone other than him, because he knows how badly he's failed the Master and thinks maybe if he loved someone else he'd be ok.The Doctor wanting this enough to pretend it's true, and the Master loving the Doctor enough to try to believe it for his sake. Which is the thing about the audio that makes the *most* sense to me: just how much horrific stuff the Master is willing to believe about himself because the Doctor needs him to believe it.

I like that MUCH better as an explanation, but it requires the reader to do a lot of work in terms of reading that? I mean, it's really odd that the Doctor's willing to say 'you never cared about anyone' when, even from a non-slash standpoint, that's not true /within the text/. Whether in a positive childhood 'play with you/fight to save you/plan a conjoined future (am I correct in reading that the stated intention is to get away /together/ in this?)' way or a negative adult way, he's always cared about the Doctor. So the whole paradigm of 'you need to love SOMEONE' is clumsily drawn for me due to what seems a dumb, dumb way for self-aware Seven to be thinking of all this.

I dig archetypes, but the Death's Champion thing felt a bit empty to me.

Re: what you and she were talking about, and you making the good point that you don't see how Champions work in this world: yeah. The EPIC might have been more palatable to me if the internal logic of the system had been consistent/convincing?

I have an inherent bias against the giant dropping Good and Evil anvils, and, apparently, so does the Master, who's quick to point out that while Seven's wibbling about never having understood his motives/why he felt the need to kill, he points out that death is largely his externality, and that his motives are pretty discrete and comprehensible: attain knowledge, power, and, while he doesn't say it, it's clear enough in the show, to get the Doctor's attention/cause him grief for again unstated reasons ~~And to do him. Totally to do him.~~ So at least /someone/ challenges this weird non-subjective morality play.

But really? An inherent, deterministic pre-conceived concept of evil undetermined by social construction or circumstance outside of the domain of fantasy? Gross.

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And yeah, I liked that the Master was all, "this is shit." It made it really, really clear that this was all a story that the Doctor was telling for his own purposes, because he likes to use archetypes to explain things. I do like to think that in the intervening 900 years the Master's grown beyond understanding his life as a response to the Doctor's moral cowardice.

And this ties in with the above: he /doesn't/ view his life as a big evol crusade for no end but death. And I love the idea of the Doctor's narration being really suspect, but for me that's undermined by the John scene we get again after the Doctor departs and the fact that Death was his listener and didn't call him on embroidering the story for his own ends. I want to believe it as a fair tale, the way RTD (pretty interestingly, imo) said vortex/drums was more a fairy tale than literal truth, but then the structure of the audio kind of says No! Real! All Real! and that disappoints me.

The Doctor at the end, I think, faces the same choice. Will he kill an innocent person to take on the role of Death's Champion so the Master doesn't have to? He thinks he will, but then he doesn't, and all he's left with is a (empty?) promise to save the Master one day.

I didn't think of punishment as correlated to relieving the Master of that mantle, in the audio? Which made it all the more random? And if that IS what's going on, that could have been better put. Also that thing where they're choosing between Jacqueline or John Smith was awkward for me b/c in choosing that Jacqueline live and John Smith die you choose that the Master live and kill bushels of people, and how they don't specifically address that bugs the crap out of me.

Now where this all falls down is that we don't see what the Master is doing for Death that Death (or the Universe) particularly needs. That's why I left Death out of my story altogether (although she was in a previous version) and made it that what the Master was destroying herself to preserve was her (and the Doctor's) belief that the Doctor was, of the two of them, the one that was Good. But to do that, given that they had a dead body between them, she had to imagine herself as completely morally responsible, and therefore Evil. (And damn, the more I think about my odd little story the more I think I have to rewrite it to make clear what I'm trying to say.)

I like that so much better than a third party triangulation with Death. It's more intimate, it makes more sense.

I was thinking re: your fic that I really like the frame narrative idea in light of the audio, now I've heard it (BTW GOOD use of dashing baby on floor!), and also it might alleviate my 'fear of punishment/social environment' concerns to make the framing clear, and do interesting things to the story's perspective? Also, and this may be too mythic!twee for you, maybe the boy and the girl for the names, since it might fit better w/ the atmosphere? I dunno.

But now after this ep I really want to read circa-Family of Blood John Smith/Professor Yana too. Couldn't that be good? It's kind of a compelling way of working out their issues.

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My second reaction is, as it has always been to the "This-or-that Champion" stuff, bunk! Really, who thinks that the Doctor and the Master aren't grand and epic enough on their ownselves? Why do they need to be representing great cosmic forces that aren't them? Pfffffft to that, I say!

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. The canon's already off in epic!land, I don't need cosmic forces to make me feel this is playing out on a huge scale, or to dilute the agency of those involved. And in a world full of aliens, what IS this personified Death thing, anyway?

But there is enough good writing (uneven, but w/ high points) and stuff to make it well worth a perusal? That 'over me with the knife' scene was like, uncomfortable to listen to in public levels of hot.

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Also Jacqueline liking him with strange intensity could be proof of his inherent creepy charisma, which would be interesting. And the unconscious attempt to vocal-hypnotize his maid calm? WAY cool.

Also requesting Sympathy for the Devil--hope I get that one, b/c it sounds so win.

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prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com

uncomfortable to listen to in public levels of hot

Well, I'm convinced.

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Oh man, come back to me with your mileage on that one and tell me if it did indeed vary. This is all downloadable on That One Eps Com, btw, you too could have uncomfortable!hot at your finger tips if you do not already.

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That scene escalates into sex so. easily. Someone needs to write that, b/c I need to read it.

Um, you know it's Seven and Crispy!Master, right? ~~But gah, it's still hot. I am so sick.~~

The audio basically needs a ton of work to make sense - it throws out a lot of really evocative stuff that isn't so logical and leaves it up to the listener to figure out why or how it works. It's a style of storytelling that only works for me regarding a character or pairing that I'm already obsessing about, but given that I *am* already obsessing here I love the audio for giving me more to obsess about, ponder over, and try to work out.

As far as Victor: I found it really interesting that Jaqueline was willing to totally ignore all the Master's evil and but still rejected Victor after finding out what he did. In the Doctor's story Jaqueline is sort of a stand-in for the Doctor (privileged guy who runs around ineffectually and condescendingly doing good and is in love with the Master, check...) and her rejection of Victor is maybe parallel to the Doctor's earlier rejection of the Master? Just as her love for the Master is parallel to the Doctor's?

The Doctor's treatment of the Master here is pretty condescending - his way of loving him is to turn him into someone else. (And killing him, but that's for the universe's sake, not for his.) Even at the end he never considers the possibility of loving the Master *as the Master*. That's pretty in-character for Seven, I think, but I can understand why the Master, when he becomes himself, isn't exactly grateful.

his motives are pretty discrete and comprehensible: attain knowledge, power, and, while he doesn't say it, it's clear enough in the show, to get the Doctor's attention/cause him grief for again unstated reasons

See, and I was never sold on the Master's own stated motivations. He keeps losing, and for someone so powerful, that to me indicates that on some level he wants to lose. In other words, that what he wants is to fight for power, not to attain it. (The Rani really does want power, so gets it very effectively and happily rules her own planet for centuries.) And yes, I buy that he wants the Doctor, but why does he want the Doctor in this way?

Not that the 'Death's Champion' business explains a damned thing: saying that someone kills because they serve death is basically a tautology. But at least it recognizes that it's a problem.

I didn't read the morality play as non-subjective, but rather as the Doctor telling the story and externalizing a lot of his subjectivity. But yeah, the Champions thing wasn't backed up enough to feel real to me, so it made more sense to me to understand it as metaphorical and part of the Doctor's (and possibly young!Master's) self-understanding.

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Um, you know it's Seven and Crispy!Master, right? But gah, it's still hot. I am so sick.

But it's Seven and they say 'somewhat facially disfigured,' and the cover art is of him looking like he has a burn scar on his face but not like this is frigging Deadly Assassin, so whatever. Still hot.

and her rejection of Victor is maybe parallel to the Doctor's earlier rejection of the Master? Just as her love for the Master is parallel to the Doctor's?

I was thinking the whole 'I killed to protect you because I love you' parallel is there to the nth degree. In some ways Victor and the Master vs. Jacqueline and the Doctor are the natural twins here--'I've always worshiped you, but you seem so remote' could easily by about the Doctor. And then they put John and Jacqueline together to try and backpedal from What Murder Means in this house in an odd triangulation.

The Doctor's treatment of the Master here is pretty condescending - his way of loving him is to turn him into someone else.

It's odd- when he says 'it'll be good to get to know you again' to John, or starts to, I really wonder wtf he's been doing the rest of the decade. Being /him/, that he hasn't been around in the town pestering him already is a surprise to me. And when he made this deal thing, did he /ever/ expect he'd be able to kill him after? He fails to do so when the Master's himself and mid evil act all the time--why does he think he'll have any luck with innocent master, or agree to these conditions?

In other words, that what he wants is to fight for power, not to attain it. >

Mm. True. It's always bugged me. I've wondered if he goes off and /does/ have little systems under his control until he gets bored and wanders off or what, because he's too good at this not to win when the Doctor's not there, and the Doctor's Otherwise Occupied so much of the time. It's just so hard to evaluate b/c we never see what he *does* when the Doctor's somewhere else. Whereas the Rani just drops in twice in the midst of her own problems, we only see the Master when he's pretty much intending to come deal with the Doctor. I just want a canon hint of what else he's up to--there's whole decades, probably, when they don't see each other.

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the fact that Death was his listener and didn't call him on embroidering the story for his own ends.

Well, Death has always been his collaborator in embroidering stories. She's the one who switched the memory so that the Master remembered killing Torvik even though he didn't, and became the one who had to deal with the guilt. Maybe she likies the Doctor's way of thinking about this story because it perpetuates the 'Doctor=Good, Master=inexplicable evil' that has served her so well all along. (Although, it would be lovely to fic Death's snarky comments through the Doctor's retelling - I suppose she doesn't make them because she doesn't want to be heard by the unnamed assassin.)

But mostly I'm just not relating to Death as a real entity. Note that the first time she manifests it's in the Doctor.

Also that thing where they're choosing between Jacqueline or John Smith was awkward for me b/c in choosing that Jacqueline live and John Smith die you choose that the Master live and kill bushels of people, and how they don't specifically address that bugs the crap out of me.

Yes, that seemed not well thought out. I mean, if John kills Victor to save Jaqueline, he's actually doing the what you could argue is a morally correct thing - killing the murderer to prevent a murder. (You could argue that if Jaqueline is revivable then ethically she's not dead yet.) Why would this turn him Evil?

I suppose the implication was that *someone* would be Death's Champion, and it would be either the Master or the Doctor, so the consequences for the universe would be the same either way. But still, didn't it occur to the Master that after killing Victor, if the nature of the Master is to kill indiscriminately, he'd probably kill Jaqueline as well?

And yeah, they both need to just talk back to this whole fate and destiny thing and say, actually, we don't have to be good or evil. But I can see why the Doctor can't. It points out what to my mind is an interesting and plausible character flaw: because the Doctor (and Seven in particular, although Ten's gone that way as well) has become so powerful, he absolutely *must* believe himself to be Good with a capital G. He can accept a certain degree of his own darkness, but not enough to really recognize his similarity to the Master.

My favorite line in the audio: when the Doctor and the Master are talking and the Doctor says that we don't let us understand what we consider evil, because if we can understand it that means that we are in some way similar to it. The Doctor's insistence in this audio that the Master's evil is incomprehensible (and saying he's Death's Champion is to my mind just another way of saying that) is, in light of that line, pretty damned infuriating.

GOOD use of dashing baby on floor!

Yeah, that line was why I had to make lil'Master female. Well, that line plus the prompt in the porn meme.

Speaking of the fic, do you think it would strengthen it or weaken it to give the information that the Master didn't in fact kill Torvik, and that the Doctor is letting her think she did?

I'll work on the framing device...yes, I think that would make it work better with the audio.

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I really wonder wtf he's been doing the rest of the decade.

Maybe a different Doctor was visiting? Like your 'John Smith and his visitors' fic? No, absolutely no interest in the pretty young maid, never noticed Jaqueline either - well, not in that way. And nope, no girlfriend. Just lots of attractive, devoted gentleman callers who always seem to leave in the morning.

looking like he has a burn scar on his face but not like this is frigging Deadly Assassin

I didn't see the cover art, should look for it...

Where would you put this in Master!continuity? I was assuming it *was* crispy!Master, since it's Beevers (and because of the references to disfigurement), but it could also be post-Ainley or post-Roberts. Post-Ainley would make the most sense for Seven, I guess.

And then they put John and Jacqueline together

If we really push the whole 'this is all the Doctor's made-up story' thing, maybe Jaqueline is his Mary-Sue?

I just want a canon hint of what else he's up to--there's whole decades, probably, when they don't see each other.

Well, what we're up against is a canon characterization of the Master that isn't particularly consistent across the decades (and actors). So the question of 'What the Master Really Wants' is up to speculation - and I guess the answer to that would determine what he does when he's not pursuing the Doctor. I still have no frigging clue, but I find the question fascinating.

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Victor=Master. Of-frigging-course. Could they hit me with a larger name-anvil please?

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Just lots of attractive, devoted gentleman callers who always seem to leave in the morning.

That'd make for a really entertaining fic!

Where would you put this in Master!continuity? I was assuming it *was* crispy!Master, since it's Beevers (and because of the references to disfigurement), but it could also be post-Ainley or post-Roberts. Post-Ainley would make the most sense for Seven, I guess.

Yeah, I went with post-Ainley. Though that annoyed me, b/c from the outfit I thought Ainley!Master died in Enemy Within.

If we really push the whole 'this is all the Doctor's made-up story' thing, maybe Jaqueline is his Mary-Sue?</>

Oh, especially good given that, Victor aside, Jacqueline seems to be John's real best friend in the town, and he loves her in the friend way (I'll believe that, though not romantically), and so that best friendship would, for badfic!writer Doctor, just blossom into romantic love that could save the Master from his evil ways, wouldn't it?! (Please to be ignoring the fact that it didn't work the first time) Man, Seven, stop writing that fanfic in your head...

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Wow. Yeah, I didn't immediately get that either.

Aside from the text asking you to read the characters as dopplegangers in some ways, how, I have to wonder, does the story read if Jacqueline and Victor aren't even /there/? If they're entirely the Doctor's attempt to rationalize the thing through externalizing bits of it? That opens up a world of awesome possibility of interpretation of what really happened.

I have to admit, I liked the audio, but I'd like it better if the author intended to provide this multi-layered explanation of it via the whole conceit of frame-narrative. That's just cool.

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Speaking of the fic, do you think it would strengthen it or weaken it to give the information that the Master didn't in fact kill Torvik, and that the Doctor is letting her think she did?

I think that would over-complicate it, perhaps, esp. given that we're spending all this time in the Master's head and /she/ doesn't know so why should we know? There's already so much info crammed into the if, I think that might lessen the emotional impact of her thinking she did do it/be too confusing to slid it in?

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how, I have to wonder, does the story read if Jacqueline and Victor aren't even /there/? If they're entirely the Doctor's attempt to rationalize the thing through externalizing bits of it?

I really like this reading.

It also makes the end make sense...if Victor represents the Master and Jacqueline is the Doctor's Mary-Sue, then the Master killing Victor to save Jacqueline really *is* the Master destroying himself to save the Doctor. Of course the Doctor justifies himself narratively by making Jacqueline dead (and therefore helpless) while the Master is making his decision...

The reason I'm inclined to give the writer the benefit of the doubt here is that the previous BF audio in the series, "Omega", is all about unreliable narration. It's also uttely brilliant and hilarious - worth a listen when you want a break from Master-related Whoness. But it's basically one simple story told through many different narrators: two historians, two actors, a tour guide, Omega himself, and a later Gallifreyan bureaucrat, as well as a typically confused Five. All of these narrators have their own purposes and none are reliable, so the point becomes less 'what happened?' than 'why are they each telling the story that particular way?' It also revisits the theme of other characters taking on guilt that might rightfully belong to the Doctor so that the Doctor can be considered 'good', and whose purposes that might serve.

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Great discussion of the audio. In order not to repeat anything already said better, I'll just make two points:

1) What Seven actually says in the "you love Jacqueline, yes, pretty please?" conversation is "as the Master, you never cared for etc.", not that the person he's talking to never loved anyone. I think he's trying to make a division between three stages: pre-Master, Master, and John Smith!Master, which is also supported by the way he tells the childhood story, which ends, as far as the Master CV is concerned with, "the other did what he had to to survive, but guilt, hate and loneliness began to eat at him, hardened his heart, and soon there was only one constant in his life, and that was death. He became the Master". Mind you, I still agree with the rest of you that postulating the Master as the Master (i.e. post leaving Gallifrey) was unable to love is clumsy psychology if that's the authorial intention and deep denial if it's just supposed to be Seven's construction, but I think it's important he makes this division. Because it ties in his belief that the John Smith existence is the true and better self for the Master whereas the Master existence is the artificial and worse existence both for Master and universe alike.

2) Unreliable narration: Seven actually points this out several times, telling the unnamed assassin "you shouldn't believe everything I say" and "only if you take the stranger's word for it; do you always believe what you are told?"

3) And just for the sake of argument and leaving possible authorial intentions totally aside, my own theory why the Doctor here is so set on constructing Jacqueline as a worthy love object for John/the Master and on the interpretation that the Master can love as John but not as the Master, other than the obvious guilt and sense of having failed the Master back in the day: if he accepts that what the Master felt through him through the years post Gallifrey was love, he also has to accept love can be incredibly vicious. One big difference to the Victor/Jacqueline parallel which is otherwise strong - Victor only harms Jacqueline by killing her. The Master, on the hand, has put the Doctor through various torture sessions, assassination attempts, and killed and endangered millions of people just to get his attention. It really isn't easy to call this love if you don't have an abused spouse mindframe, which the Doctor doesn't, even as Five. On the other hand, it's also not easy to admit to yourself you love a person who can do and did and will keep doing this all this to you, your friends, and the galaxy at large. It makes you complicit to a degree. And while Seven is far more self aware than earlier Doctors, he's not there yet. (Ten is, but Ten and Nine before him went through the experience of getting well and truly broken.)

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x-losfic.livejournal.com

Because it ties in his belief that the John Smith existence is the true and better self for the Master whereas the Master existence is the artificial and worse existence both for Master and universe alike.

Given that (at least in the past circa Mind of Evil) the Master's biggest fear is being laughed at/dismissed/thought pathetic by the Doctor, being told that the Doctor doesn't just question your moral choices, but finds your entire being 1) false and 2) entirely inferior to your human shadow, who, lacking your centuries of experience, infinitely greater capability and a wealth is shared memory, is /nothing/ compared to you, must really hurt. ESP. the whole 'you can't love as the Master' thing-trapped Master consciousness just has to be seething with "The fuck I can't!"

Unreliable narration: Seven actually points this out several times, telling the unnamed assassin "you shouldn't believe everything I say" and "only if you take the stranger's word for it; do you always believe what you are told?"

Agreed--it's only a question of the degree of unreliability. Fudging the facts vs. inventing avatar characters to try and break down your duality, which is a different order of magnitude.

It really isn't easy to call this love if you don't have an abused spouse mindframe, which the Doctor doesn't, even as Five.

I can really see your point, I just wonder what he's choosing to call it/see it as, then? Because Seven doesn't seem dumb enough to internally pull the 'he's entirely motiveless/I have nooooo idea what he wants/why he does what he does' thing outside of the frame narrative. He has to /get/ that it's connected to him, so how does he think whatever it is driving the Master is functioning if not as a form of obsessive romantic-esque interest?

He's currently incapable of accepting complicity by admitting that he's been playing into the Master, which, in some ways, he really has. If not actively stringing him along, he doesn't shut the Master down in the way he arguably could/should, esp. in earlier incarnations--he never says "Leave me alone forever, I'm NEVER coming with you to rule the universe, I find you absolutely ridiculous, I'm not interested, I'm never going to be interested, in fact I've formed a substantive emotional connection to X and plan on making a commitment to X and so fuck off," which might actually have had an effect. Which is fine, I can get that he's too hamstrung by the fact that he /does/ actually care to be able to see what he's done here, and b/c admitting it would bring such a torrent of guilt that it'd really be too much for him to process. But his own involvement aside, I still question what he thinks has been going on for centuries if not an extension of what was going on between them when they were young.

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If not actively stringing him along, he doesn't shut the Master down in the way he arguably could/should, esp. in earlier incarnations--he never says "Leave me alone forever, I'm NEVER coming with you to rule the universe, I find you absolutely ridiculous, I'm not interested, I'm never going to be interested, in fact I've formed a substantive emotional connection to X and plan on making a commitment to X and so fuck off," which might actually have had an effect.

Um, what about Four? Which is btw why Four/Master just won't work for me. All the other incarnations of the Doctor do respond to the Master in some fashion and varying degrees, but Four is the one regeneration from whom I don't get a sense of connection at all, so when he says "you're mad" in Deadly Assassin, there is no undertone of "and I wish you weren't" or "that's so you", just the statement itself, and he definitely sounds as if he means it when he later says he hopes the Master is dead. (Mind you, at this point offers to share the universe appear to be a thing of the past anyway, and it's bodysnatching and insane Matrix games instead.) I suppose one could also say Five actually letting the Master burn is as strong a rejection as the Doctor is ever going to make, though paradoxically Five otherwise comes across as far more interested than Four.

As for Seven, unfortunately we only have one on screen Master story but the fact he as I recall (it's been a while since I watched Survival) actually has the "there always has been a certain attraction" line, doesn't he? Which if Lidster means this to take place post-Survival (and it pretty much has to, with no Ace or Mel around) really makes Seven-in-denial either badly written or deliberately disingenious for the sake of the listener (whom he doesn't yet know is Death in disguise).

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he definitely sounds as if he means it when he later says he hopes the Master is dead.

Yeah, but he doesn't say it TO the Master. And 'you're mad' isn't really 'no, really, I despise you and have moved on.'

I suppose one could also say Five actually letting the Master burn is as strong a rejection as the Doctor is ever going to make, though paradoxically Five otherwise comes across as far more interested than Four.

See, I guess it's a mixed signals issue. I have friends who honestly read a world of subtext/body language into Logopolis, and Five alternates letting him burn with trying to save him in Kings Demons even after the unforgivable Logopolis thing. So being inconsistently interested...isn't really a shut-down, it's prevarication, and he can /work/ with prevarication. And I really agree with

deborah_judge (I think it was her?)
when she says that Four is a reaction to Three's emotionalism, what with the Buddhist attachment theme to his death and Four's somewhat more detached removed-from-the-world craziness. Similarly Six seems less interested in the Master than Five, which makes sense if you view him as purposely having regenerated away from a body he saw as weak or vulnerable, too damaged by loosing people.

I always thought it was interesting that the regenerations somewhat caused by the Master, 5 and 8, seem younger, more emotionally vulnerable, more romantic in the classic sense. It's like regenerating because of/near the Master snaps him back to being arguably more compatible with him.

If you extend this to WarChief!Master theory, you loose the childlike thing, but you get that they presumably regenerated about the same time, into Three and Delgado!Master, who are incredibly compatible.

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"there always has been a certain attraction"

Oh, and yeah, Survival Seven basically admits to Ace that they roll around in the UST. It's hard to read that ep unslashily. WTF, post-Survival denial!Seven?

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Of course, the boring explanation could be that Joseph Lidster doesn't consciously get slash.*g* The fact that his audio is chock full of Doctor/Master (I knew it had been worth the purchase when Death-via-Master/John taunted Seven "so you think he's your friend again...", and that was just the start) doesn't necessarily negate that. I mean, there is Anthony Ainley on the Keeper of Traken audio commentary stunning us all by casually mentioning he didn't clue into the Master actually having "a soft spot for the Doctor the size of Wolverhampton" until watching the Delgado eps years after his own performance as the Master, which begs the question, what did he think he was playing then?

From Doylist to Watsonian:

And I really agree with deborah_judge (I think it was her?)
when she says that Four is a reaction to Three's emotionalism, what with the Buddhist attachment theme to his death and Four's somewhat more detached removed-from-the-world craziness.

It was

londonkds, actually, but she might have picked it up from him.

It's like regenerating because of/near the Master snaps him back to being arguably more compatible with him.

Ohhhh, interesting point.

If you extend this to WarChief!Master theory, you loose the childlike thing, but you get that they presumably regenerated about the same time, into Three and Delgado!Master, who are incredibly compatible.

No kidding. Also, Three is the only one of the bunch in Old Who who actually says yes when Jo calls him on the Master!love in Sea Devils (you know, the whole "you wanted to see him" after they left the cell, and the Doctor constructing the oddest climax ever in reply, what with "well, we were friends once... very good friends... in fact you might say were were at school together"). Mind you, otherwise I think Three is very much a response to Two being too vulnerable (from outward stuff like the Venusian aikido instead of crouching behind the next male companion via the whole enjoyment he takes in physically engaging others to the instant bickering response to other Time Lords instead of the fear Two had), but he's definitely a softie when it comes to the Master, so I like the idea of that being the result of regenerating near him.

It occurs to me that Jacobi!Master regenerating into Simm!Master comes complete with the argument that he wants a young strong compatible body to the Doctor's. Age-ist.*g*

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I knew I remembered that line! See above for Doylist theory about the writer as the only possible explanation!

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which begs the question, what did he think he was playing then?

O_O REALLY? He /said/ that? I'm so. confused. as to what indeed he thought he was doing. I mean, that LEER.

"well, we were friends once... very good friends... in fact you might say were were at school together"

Which is such an anti-climax it's an obvious dodge away from something else. OR-- Jo with her good family is probably of the class of British Public School goers. And, though I don't think the writer necessarily meant it like /that/, there's good reason for the stereotype about what goes on in that era of boys' Public School. "We were at school together" can be read as a pretty direct coded statement. Funnily enough one Jo's background is particularly keyed in to understanding.

Oh, I like that about Three as a response to Two!

It occurs to me that Jacobi!Master regenerating into Simm!Master comes complete with the argument that he wants a young strong compatible body to the Doctor's. Age-ist.*g*

Mm. And Jacobi!Master as the Time-War Master contemporaneous to Eight (Roberts being more a quick-fix body-snatch than a regeneration even in the sense that Ainley!Master was) makes so much sense to me: I wish they'd ever been on-screen together, because Eight/Jacobi!Master seems terribly sensible.

Either it's all (viewing the thing as a text) v. specific commentary on their status as foils, or (viewing it as a universe) maybe paired regenerators were a thing that cropped up on Gallifrey? Early first-regen couple, very close, matures into a Time Lord-dom together, kind of gets stuck in a biological groove, even after they're no longer the people/couple they were when they were children?

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I mean, that LEER.

Absolutely. But he did say it (in response to the question whether he had watched any Delgado eps before taking the part) and was very specific. Alas, he's dead now, so the mystery as to what the hell he thought he was signalling with the leer will forever remain unsolved.*g*

"We were at school together" can be read as a pretty direct coded statement. Funnily enough one Jo's background is particularly keyed in to understanding.

True that, and it's not like they didn't draw the Prydonian Academy/English public school parallels glaringly elsewhere as well (I'm thinking of the Four and Borusa scene at the end of The Deadly Assassin). Plus I think Jo would be pretty much unfazed by the admission (as opposed to some later companions).

makes so much sense to me: I wish they'd ever been on-screen together, because Eight/Jacobi!Master seems terribly sensible.

Oh yes. But then, there is still hope for the audios. *pokes Big Finish* This being said, it struck me upon rewatching Utopia yet again that Jacobi-as-Yana and Ten do just click as well and have instant chemistry, which makes it a rare case of two successive regenerations working that with with the same Doctor regeneration.

maybe paired regenerators were a thing that cropped up on Gallifrey? Early first-regen couple, very close, matures into a Time Lord-dom together, kind of gets stuck in a biological groove, even after they're no longer the people/couple they were when they were children?

The question is whether on Gallifrey couples are even meant to stay together beyond a first regeneration, or whether these two are rebelling in that way as well. I mean, if you look at it in practical terms, and considering the usual life span per regeneration is much longer if you're not gallivanting around in the universe the way the Doctor and the Master do, I could see them having something like - branching out to another fandom, as I'm a trekker of old - the Trills on DS9, i.e. each new life is a new life and gets treated as such. Conversely, Callifrey to me looks like a prime candidate for arranged marriages anyway, whether or not one uses the loooooooooms idea, so I doubt "normal" couples grow up together the way the Doctor and the Master did. But the fact is they did, and however one wants to interpret it felt closer to the other than to anyone else for the formative period of their first lives. I do like the idea this means one of the aftereffects is that if one regeneration is too much out of tune with the other, this will snap back in the next.

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m a trekker of old - the Trills on DS9

Oh, me too, stuff of my childhood--as a child I believed absolutely in Picard/Q. I maintain 3rd grade me was right.

each new life is a new life and gets treated as such

Yeah, but look at Borusa moving from Deadly Assassin to Five Doctors, where he keeps his position and someone comments on his new regeneration not doing him any favors, like he's absolutely the same person and Doctor-style evolution is the norm? And Romana basically transitions smoothly into continuity.

conversely, Callifrey to me looks like a prime candidate for arranged marriages anyway, whether or not one uses the loooooooooms idea

I'd agree with the first, and ...yeah, I can't do looms. *shrug* I think the idea is a little weird and possibly gynophobic (the golden years scifi establishment fearing women?! omg, that never happens), but even in the whoniverse itself, other than as an externalization of bearing the child, for medical/convenience reasons, I dunno how much I buy looms. I mean, we KNOW they have childhoods (thanks, Sound of Drums, or Five in Black Orchid), so that's out?

whether on Gallifrey couples are even meant to stay together beyond a first regeneration,

Not that they were necessarily ever Teh Marriedz, but: I would go with 'marriage is less ubiquitous on Gallifrey b/c there's less procreative impulse due to long lifespans (Gallifreyans are nature's k-strategists), and you're expected to make a multi-regenerational commitment, which is the kind of thing you take seriously and usually don't embark on until you've regenerated at least once, just to make sure you're still compatible after that/sufficiently prepared for the challenge it implies'?

It makes the entire 'telepathic connection as part of that bond' thing work better for me, which I almost assume marriage in a telepathic species /must/ entail. and Regenerating at least a little bit similarly to your partner becomes a good survival characteristic if you're connected for the long haul by whatever telepathic thing you've got going on.

so I doubt "normal" couples grow up together the way the Doctor and the Master did

Yeah, I'd imagine sort of reflective regeneration as an occasional phenomenon rather than How Things Work Generally. Like, similar to how a small group of people is ambidexterious/has eidetic memory. Stick two people who have the potential to regenerate with this added thing together an an early age and watch them sync up, like couvade or some other weird psycho-biological phenomenon?

I do like the idea this means one of the aftereffects is that if one regeneration is too much out of tune with the other, this will snap back in the next.

Mm, and how galling would biological entwinement with a person who no longer acknowledges you be?

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as a child I believed absolutely in Picard/Q. I maintain 3rd grade me was right.

With you there. Ron Moore is with us, too (I do remember interviews in which he said Q was in love with Picard), which isn't surprising since he wrote Tapestry.

Looms: personally, I think it's daft, too, and was very grateful indeed when RTD threw childhood references at us in New Who. *feels like a heretic, then reminds self the looms never made it to the screen anyway and book canon doesn't count, otherwise Seven and Ten both were at the same public school as John Smith falling for Joan Redfern :)*

you're expected to make a multi-regenerational commitment, which is the kind of thing you take seriously and usually don't embark on until you've regenerated at least once, just to make sure you're still compatible after that/sufficiently prepared for the challenge it implies'?

And wouldn't it be just like our duo to be stupid and think they don't need no stinkin' waiting time? More seriously, and speaking of New Who random asides, the fact is the Doctor says "I'm rubbish at weddings, especially my own". Now, English isn't my native language, but doesn't that sound as if he had weddings plural, not just one wedding, singular? Which would definitely imply someone had commitment issues. *veg*

Mm, and how galling would biological entwinement with a person who no longer acknowledges you be?

Oh, but this reminds me: based on the admittedly narrow evidence we have, every Time Lord seems to have a better control over regenerations than the Doctor does. I mean, Romana gets her look of choice, Borusa seems to have gone for something similar, too, and the Master when wanting a young body gets exactly that. Meanwhile, the Doctor still hasn't achieved ginger and reacts to each new regeneration with "huh? This is me now? Um..." So, if we postulate some biological regeneration rhythm for the two, the Master is clearly the one who has the better control over it while the Doctor flails anarchically about. Which must be a bit soothing and satisfying for the Master.

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Tapestry was such a slash fest. And Q's characterization makes more sense with the slash in.

Now, English isn't my native language, but doesn't that sound as if he had weddings plural, not just one wedding, singular?

From an English speaker POV, I think either is equally possible with that sentence, sadly. But I'd totally go with the Doctor's multiple craptacular commitment issues. Also with him faffing about as Koschei hisses about the seating arrangements being /all wrong/ and how if Theta /loved/ him he would have ordered cake from the /expensive/ bakers, dammit! Now everyone will remember them as the wedding with mediocre cake!

Master when wanting a young body gets exactly that.

Mm, and excepting Simm, he seems to get similar results every time. Older, intense, tends toward dark and beardy, etc.

Other thing though: "If the Doctor can be young and strong, than so can I" could be read as inevitablity--'The Doctor's currently young, having regenerated while I was in human form, off his bio-radar. Well, guess I'm looking at young, funny and spastic then. Here goes!'

the Master is clearly the one who has the better control over it while the Doctor flails anarchically about. Which must be a bit soothing and satisfying for the Master.

God, that'd be so good! 'Run from me, will you? /Fine/. *push* Now you're young, blond and vulnerable to my older, dark and commanding! I hope you like lip-trembling, b/c you'll be doing it a lot.' Or 'Deny we're connected all you want, you're /still/ such an obvious physical yang to my yin that your attempt to say otherwise is patently ridiculous.'

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And Q's characterization makes more sense with the slash in.

Hey, even Data 'ships them! (He tells Picard Q sees him as a beloved... pet in All good things.)

Now everyone will remember them as the wedding with mediocre cake!

Now you're making me wonder whether the Doctor's excited description of Donna's physical state during the wedding ceremony (you know, in his explanation speech as to why the huon particles in her activated) was autobiographical.*g*

Other thing though: "If the Doctor can be young and strong, than so can I" could be read as inevitablity--'The Doctor's currently young, having regenerated while I was in human form, off his bio-radar. Well, guess I'm looking at young, funny and spastic then. Here goes!'

LOL. Yes, that's the other explanation.

'Run from me, will you? /Fine/. *push* Now you're young, blond and vulnerable to my older, dark and commanding! I hope you like lip-trembling, b/c you'll be doing it a lot.'

*g* Well, I don't think it's a coincidence we never get a Master who is physically younger than his current Doctor. (Superaged!Doctor in LOTTL aside, since this is a control and punishment mechanism and clearly not meant to be permanent.) Just sayin'. Even when it's not a true Gallifreyan regeneration and he snitches Tremas' body, he makes Tremas physically younger than Tremas was as himself BUT not younger than Four, and I suppose theoretically he could have gone for a whole youthful look, if he had that much control over Tremas' body during the snitching.

Or 'Deny we're connected all you want, you're /still/ such an obvious physical yang to my yin that your attempt to say otherwise is patently ridiculous.'

Yup, exactly. Sidenote: though in their latest meeting, they're both past denial. I mean, the Master doesn't even pretend he wants to kill the Doctor (every other version of him went through the whole "I'm so going to kill you at the end of this, there is just this teensy weensy thing I need to do first, not that I'm looking for an excuse NOT to kill you or anything"), and the Doctor even tries to negotiate for a safe word ("we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want, just not here on earth") and openly admits he wants him, but of course they're doomed anyway...

Edited Date: 2008-05-03 06:37 am (UTC)

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And wouldn't it be just like our duo to be stupid and think they don't need no stinkin' waiting time?

Btw, I totally agree with that.

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence we never get a Master who is physically younger than his current Doctor

Oh, that IS an interesting power play! Unless you count War Chief as Master, in which he's younger than Two. I dunno, what's your stance on that one?

and the Doctor even tries to negotiate for a safe word ("we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want, just not here on earth") and openly admits he wants him, but of course they're doomed anyway

Which makes me wonder what they're going to do after that when some production team brings the Master back? I mean, where do they emotionally /go/ from there?

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War Chief: if other people use it well enough in fanfic, I go with it, but not for myself. My main argument is that Two really doesn't give the impression of recognizing him, and behaves far more as One did with the Meddling Monk than as Three does with Delgado!Master. And I don't quite see how they'd from formal and distant to the extremely personal bickering in Terror of the Autons ("probably overcomplicated, vicious and ultimately doomed to failure like your plans usually are" and that beaming smile when the Master has escaped at the end) if this is the same guy and these are two successive encounters. So, in conclusion: I buy it in fanfic (yours, for example), but not when I actually watch The War Games on screen.

Which makes me wonder what they're going to do after that when some production team brings the Master back? I mean, where do they emotionally /go/ from there?

That is indeed a problem. I mean, if they just go back to the usual "Master cooks up evil scheme" plot and the two act as if nothing out of the usual happened the last time, the emotional dissonance would be staggering. In short, they face a similar problem than if the last Master story planned for Delgado actually had been filmed (you know, the one where the Master would have died saving the Doctor's life), because after something like this, you just can't go back to your usual Holmes/Moriarty games.

What I'd do, if I had to write it, and bearing tv restrictions of storytelling in mind: I wouldn't bring back the Master until some other Time Lords are restored as well because that would allow for some more character exploration, i.e. how much of their ability to skip over the usual denials (the "I really want to kill you, I'm just post-poning" /"go away, you evil bastard" routine) came from the fact they were the last ones and how much came from who they were to each other? And I could see them being extremely skittish around each other at first. The Master because well, he's just not used to winning and he finally did, not because of the one year that never was but because he finally well and truly broke the Doctor (who hadn't given up during that year) by dying and if it was all about winning for him, what is left? Unless it wasn't, and he'd have to face that and figure it out. As for the Doctor, essentially proposing to a psycho mass murderer and being willing to spend the rest of your existence with him is just a liiiittle bit insane, plus if you're already the original running type, the fact he then dies on you just to spite you isn't exactly going to confirm this ever was a good idea in any way. So I could see him going into "avoid, avoid, avoid" mode with the Master. Then of course plot would force them together, and unless you want to change the premise of the show or end it, which I can't see the BBC any time soon, they'd probably end up concluding that no, it wasn't just about winning or being the last of their kind, that they love each other, but that they still can't live with each other in any kind of sane way. (I.e. without one of them as a prisoner or forced to go against his nature.) Upon which conclusion they part in Three/Delgado!Master manner (i.e. with the Master making a getaway but the Doctor secretly or not so secretly glad of it and a last exchange of looks), and we've come full circle.

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Oh, I read hilarious post-break-up Mutual Recognition from hell in that scene, and then baby!Master letting his plan go to hell, thrown off by the mere proximity of his ex (Do you want to rule benevolently with me?! No?! I'll ask again in Colony in Space, don't worry, just, you know, think about it...hold still while I touch you. Fine, try and walk away, I'm just going to follow you. Mmm, Doctor!shoulder...), and then Two calling in the other Time Lords on them both, with a good deal of sympathy/care for the War Cheif.

But you're right, there's something 'almost' about War Chief that doesn't quite sell me on it, and I really wish that extra 'Master' oomph was there. I think in canon it'd be more awkward for him /not/ to be the Master, though, b/c otherwise high school must have been v. Degrassi, what with Koschei and baby!War Cheif running around after sweet Theta lurve.

I know only the sketchiest outlines of what the final Delgado serial was supposed to be doing. I know there was Master death for Doctor, but does anybody have more info than that?

Of course, the whole meaning of Last of the Time Lords shifts for me in the Master had some grand escape plan all along a la the ring, and this how to write your way out of the corner opens up, b/c it's sort of more of the same if he was just playing dead rather than rejecting (finally) having the Doctor at all costs--which is something we've not seen before (it brings to mind Shalka!Master, or Sea Devils!Master--who could obviously have gotten out of that prison and into his TARDIS an age ago, who was sticking around waiting for what, more quality Doctor time? To piss him off with his little scheme? For the Doctor to break and come to him? So in canon past, we have a Master who's not necessarily objecting to being imprisoned, is confident in his ability to get out of it, and willing to confine himself to prison, or even just to Earth for months, for that matter, before LOtTL--but NOW it's untenable? ). We've seen he'd do practically /anything/ for the Doctor, but we've never before really gotten good proof of what he /isn't/ willing to do.

Mm. Full-circle thing makes much story-telling sense, but dissatisfies me emotionally. Not b/c I expected them to decide yes, they did want to do this whole thing together on-screen, but because it sort of... I dunno, does it kind of negate the entire journey if they wind up exactly where they started? It's just so futile, and for two characters so big on the whole 'exalted struggling' thing, for all that struggle to mean nothing dynamic is sort of this admission that nothing about their work has meaning, and nothing about their love is redemptive.

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