AVEC SPOILERS FOR THE BFA 'MASTER'

[x_los]

Ah, the BFA audio Master: I will review it more fully inna bit. Suffice it to say I've been dividing my day between studying for the Kareinina final, taking care of Rachel and Mike's rats, dealing with the Home Inspection and listening to the audio.

Inspector Character: Your maid's hot. Do you think you might like Human Wimmins?
John Smith!Fobwatched!Master: Um. No. I totally don't care at all. It's never even occurred to me to care. /Really./

John Smith!Fobwatched!Master: So you and this 'Master' used to be... close?
Seven: That's not important right now.

Seven: So the Master never loved or cared about anyone ever, but I think you could love this Jacqueline person. Do you?!
John Smith!Fobwatched!Master: Um. I mean, not in the way where I in any way care? But she makes me laugh. At her more than with her. But I /guess/ you could construe that as a positive attachment?
Seven: *construes hard*
John Smith!Fobwatched!Master: Hey, Re: my apparently never having loved or cared for anyone. That seems kind of... not true, given that whole thing earlier where when we were children I killed someone just for hurting you. And that whole thing where we ran around loling in the flashback and seemed to be planning to run away together in a Hetero Man-Love Not Eloping At All Totally Cousins or Something...Okay, Having A Great Deal of Sex way. Are you sure you're not being desperately naive or taking serious advantage of the frame narrative structure?
Seven: THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW. Look, a woman! LOVE IT!
John Smith!Fobwatched!Master: ...I think I understand why I have this lingering desire to smack you leaking through.

Comments

[x-los.livejournal.com]

which begs the question, what did he think he was playing then?

O_O REALLY? He /said/ that? I'm so. confused. as to what indeed he thought he was doing. I mean, that LEER.

"well, we were friends once... very good friends... in fact you might say were were at school together"

Which is such an anti-climax it's an obvious dodge away from something else. OR-- Jo with her good family is probably of the class of British Public School goers. And, though I don't think the writer necessarily meant it like /that/, there's good reason for the stereotype about what goes on in that era of boys' Public School. "We were at school together" can be read as a pretty direct coded statement. Funnily enough one Jo's background is particularly keyed in to understanding.

Oh, I like that about Three as a response to Two!

It occurs to me that Jacobi!Master regenerating into Simm!Master comes complete with the argument that he wants a young strong compatible body to the Doctor's. Age-ist.*g*

Mm. And Jacobi!Master as the Time-War Master contemporaneous to Eight (Roberts being more a quick-fix body-snatch than a regeneration even in the sense that Ainley!Master was) makes so much sense to me: I wish they'd ever been on-screen together, because Eight/Jacobi!Master seems terribly sensible.

Either it's all (viewing the thing as a text) v. specific commentary on their status as foils, or (viewing it as a universe) maybe paired regenerators were a thing that cropped up on Gallifrey? Early first-regen couple, very close, matures into a Time Lord-dom together, kind of gets stuck in a biological groove, even after they're no longer the people/couple they were when they were children?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I mean, that LEER.

Absolutely. But he did say it (in response to the question whether he had watched any Delgado eps before taking the part) and was very specific. Alas, he's dead now, so the mystery as to what the hell he thought he was signalling with the leer will forever remain unsolved.*g*

"We were at school together" can be read as a pretty direct coded statement. Funnily enough one Jo's background is particularly keyed in to understanding.

True that, and it's not like they didn't draw the Prydonian Academy/English public school parallels glaringly elsewhere as well (I'm thinking of the Four and Borusa scene at the end of The Deadly Assassin). Plus I think Jo would be pretty much unfazed by the admission (as opposed to some later companions).

makes so much sense to me: I wish they'd ever been on-screen together, because Eight/Jacobi!Master seems terribly sensible.

Oh yes. But then, there is still hope for the audios. *pokes Big Finish* This being said, it struck me upon rewatching Utopia yet again that Jacobi-as-Yana and Ten do just click as well and have instant chemistry, which makes it a rare case of two successive regenerations working that with with the same Doctor regeneration.

maybe paired regenerators were a thing that cropped up on Gallifrey? Early first-regen couple, very close, matures into a Time Lord-dom together, kind of gets stuck in a biological groove, even after they're no longer the people/couple they were when they were children?

The question is whether on Gallifrey couples are even meant to stay together beyond a first regeneration, or whether these two are rebelling in that way as well. I mean, if you look at it in practical terms, and considering the usual life span per regeneration is much longer if you're not gallivanting around in the universe the way the Doctor and the Master do, I could see them having something like - branching out to another fandom, as I'm a trekker of old - the Trills on DS9, i.e. each new life is a new life and gets treated as such. Conversely, Callifrey to me looks like a prime candidate for arranged marriages anyway, whether or not one uses the loooooooooms idea, so I doubt "normal" couples grow up together the way the Doctor and the Master did. But the fact is they did, and however one wants to interpret it felt closer to the other than to anyone else for the formative period of their first lives. I do like the idea this means one of the aftereffects is that if one regeneration is too much out of tune with the other, this will snap back in the next.

This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[x-los.livejournal.com]

m a trekker of old - the Trills on DS9

Oh, me too, stuff of my childhood--as a child I believed absolutely in Picard/Q. I maintain 3rd grade me was right.

each new life is a new life and gets treated as such

Yeah, but look at Borusa moving from Deadly Assassin to Five Doctors, where he keeps his position and someone comments on his new regeneration not doing him any favors, like he's absolutely the same person and Doctor-style evolution is the norm? And Romana basically transitions smoothly into continuity.

conversely, Callifrey to me looks like a prime candidate for arranged marriages anyway, whether or not one uses the loooooooooms idea

I'd agree with the first, and ...yeah, I can't do looms. *shrug* I think the idea is a little weird and possibly gynophobic (the golden years scifi establishment fearing women?! omg, that never happens), but even in the whoniverse itself, other than as an externalization of bearing the child, for medical/convenience reasons, I dunno how much I buy looms. I mean, we KNOW they have childhoods (thanks, Sound of Drums, or Five in Black Orchid), so that's out?

whether on Gallifrey couples are even meant to stay together beyond a first regeneration,

Not that they were necessarily ever Teh Marriedz, but: I would go with 'marriage is less ubiquitous on Gallifrey b/c there's less procreative impulse due to long lifespans (Gallifreyans are nature's k-strategists), and you're expected to make a multi-regenerational commitment, which is the kind of thing you take seriously and usually don't embark on until you've regenerated at least once, just to make sure you're still compatible after that/sufficiently prepared for the challenge it implies'?

It makes the entire 'telepathic connection as part of that bond' thing work better for me, which I almost assume marriage in a telepathic species /must/ entail. and Regenerating at least a little bit similarly to your partner becomes a good survival characteristic if you're connected for the long haul by whatever telepathic thing you've got going on.

so I doubt "normal" couples grow up together the way the Doctor and the Master did

Yeah, I'd imagine sort of reflective regeneration as an occasional phenomenon rather than How Things Work Generally. Like, similar to how a small group of people is ambidexterious/has eidetic memory. Stick two people who have the potential to regenerate with this added thing together an an early age and watch them sync up, like couvade or some other weird psycho-biological phenomenon?

I do like the idea this means one of the aftereffects is that if one regeneration is too much out of tune with the other, this will snap back in the next.

Mm, and how galling would biological entwinement with a person who no longer acknowledges you be?

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

as a child I believed absolutely in Picard/Q. I maintain 3rd grade me was right.

With you there. Ron Moore is with us, too (I do remember interviews in which he said Q was in love with Picard), which isn't surprising since he wrote Tapestry.

Looms: personally, I think it's daft, too, and was very grateful indeed when RTD threw childhood references at us in New Who. *feels like a heretic, then reminds self the looms never made it to the screen anyway and book canon doesn't count, otherwise Seven and Ten both were at the same public school as John Smith falling for Joan Redfern :)*

you're expected to make a multi-regenerational commitment, which is the kind of thing you take seriously and usually don't embark on until you've regenerated at least once, just to make sure you're still compatible after that/sufficiently prepared for the challenge it implies'?

And wouldn't it be just like our duo to be stupid and think they don't need no stinkin' waiting time? More seriously, and speaking of New Who random asides, the fact is the Doctor says "I'm rubbish at weddings, especially my own". Now, English isn't my native language, but doesn't that sound as if he had weddings plural, not just one wedding, singular? Which would definitely imply someone had commitment issues. *veg*

Mm, and how galling would biological entwinement with a person who no longer acknowledges you be?

Oh, but this reminds me: based on the admittedly narrow evidence we have, every Time Lord seems to have a better control over regenerations than the Doctor does. I mean, Romana gets her look of choice, Borusa seems to have gone for something similar, too, and the Master when wanting a young body gets exactly that. Meanwhile, the Doctor still hasn't achieved ginger and reacts to each new regeneration with "huh? This is me now? Um..." So, if we postulate some biological regeneration rhythm for the two, the Master is clearly the one who has the better control over it while the Doctor flails anarchically about. Which must be a bit soothing and satisfying for the Master.

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[x-los.livejournal.com]

Tapestry was such a slash fest. And Q's characterization makes more sense with the slash in.

Now, English isn't my native language, but doesn't that sound as if he had weddings plural, not just one wedding, singular?

From an English speaker POV, I think either is equally possible with that sentence, sadly. But I'd totally go with the Doctor's multiple craptacular commitment issues. Also with him faffing about as Koschei hisses about the seating arrangements being /all wrong/ and how if Theta /loved/ him he would have ordered cake from the /expensive/ bakers, dammit! Now everyone will remember them as the wedding with mediocre cake!

Master when wanting a young body gets exactly that.

Mm, and excepting Simm, he seems to get similar results every time. Older, intense, tends toward dark and beardy, etc.

Other thing though: "If the Doctor can be young and strong, than so can I" could be read as inevitablity--'The Doctor's currently young, having regenerated while I was in human form, off his bio-radar. Well, guess I'm looking at young, funny and spastic then. Here goes!'

the Master is clearly the one who has the better control over it while the Doctor flails anarchically about. Which must be a bit soothing and satisfying for the Master.

God, that'd be so good! 'Run from me, will you? /Fine/. *push* Now you're young, blond and vulnerable to my older, dark and commanding! I hope you like lip-trembling, b/c you'll be doing it a lot.' Or 'Deny we're connected all you want, you're /still/ such an obvious physical yang to my yin that your attempt to say otherwise is patently ridiculous.'

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And Q's characterization makes more sense with the slash in.

Hey, even Data 'ships them! (He tells Picard Q sees him as a beloved... pet in All good things.)

Now everyone will remember them as the wedding with mediocre cake!

Now you're making me wonder whether the Doctor's excited description of Donna's physical state during the wedding ceremony (you know, in his explanation speech as to why the huon particles in her activated) was autobiographical.*g*

Other thing though: "If the Doctor can be young and strong, than so can I" could be read as inevitablity--'The Doctor's currently young, having regenerated while I was in human form, off his bio-radar. Well, guess I'm looking at young, funny and spastic then. Here goes!'

LOL. Yes, that's the other explanation.

'Run from me, will you? /Fine/. *push* Now you're young, blond and vulnerable to my older, dark and commanding! I hope you like lip-trembling, b/c you'll be doing it a lot.'

*g* Well, I don't think it's a coincidence we never get a Master who is physically younger than his current Doctor. (Superaged!Doctor in LOTTL aside, since this is a control and punishment mechanism and clearly not meant to be permanent.) Just sayin'. Even when it's not a true Gallifreyan regeneration and he snitches Tremas' body, he makes Tremas physically younger than Tremas was as himself BUT not younger than Four, and I suppose theoretically he could have gone for a whole youthful look, if he had that much control over Tremas' body during the snitching.

Or 'Deny we're connected all you want, you're /still/ such an obvious physical yang to my yin that your attempt to say otherwise is patently ridiculous.'

Yup, exactly. Sidenote: though in their latest meeting, they're both past denial. I mean, the Master doesn't even pretend he wants to kill the Doctor (every other version of him went through the whole "I'm so going to kill you at the end of this, there is just this teensy weensy thing I need to do first, not that I'm looking for an excuse NOT to kill you or anything"), and the Doctor even tries to negotiate for a safe word ("we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want, just not here on earth") and openly admits he wants him, but of course they're doomed anyway...

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[x-los.livejournal.com]

And wouldn't it be just like our duo to be stupid and think they don't need no stinkin' waiting time?

Btw, I totally agree with that.

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence we never get a Master who is physically younger than his current Doctor

Oh, that IS an interesting power play! Unless you count War Chief as Master, in which he's younger than Two. I dunno, what's your stance on that one?

and the Doctor even tries to negotiate for a safe word ("we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want, just not here on earth") and openly admits he wants him, but of course they're doomed anyway

Which makes me wonder what they're going to do after that when some production team brings the Master back? I mean, where do they emotionally /go/ from there?

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

War Chief: if other people use it well enough in fanfic, I go with it, but not for myself. My main argument is that Two really doesn't give the impression of recognizing him, and behaves far more as One did with the Meddling Monk than as Three does with Delgado!Master. And I don't quite see how they'd from formal and distant to the extremely personal bickering in Terror of the Autons ("probably overcomplicated, vicious and ultimately doomed to failure like your plans usually are" and that beaming smile when the Master has escaped at the end) if this is the same guy and these are two successive encounters. So, in conclusion: I buy it in fanfic (yours, for example), but not when I actually watch The War Games on screen.

Which makes me wonder what they're going to do after that when some production team brings the Master back? I mean, where do they emotionally /go/ from there?

That is indeed a problem. I mean, if they just go back to the usual "Master cooks up evil scheme" plot and the two act as if nothing out of the usual happened the last time, the emotional dissonance would be staggering. In short, they face a similar problem than if the last Master story planned for Delgado actually had been filmed (you know, the one where the Master would have died saving the Doctor's life), because after something like this, you just can't go back to your usual Holmes/Moriarty games.

What I'd do, if I had to write it, and bearing tv restrictions of storytelling in mind: I wouldn't bring back the Master until some other Time Lords are restored as well because that would allow for some more character exploration, i.e. how much of their ability to skip over the usual denials (the "I really want to kill you, I'm just post-poning" /"go away, you evil bastard" routine) came from the fact they were the last ones and how much came from who they were to each other? And I could see them being extremely skittish around each other at first. The Master because well, he's just not used to winning and he finally did, not because of the one year that never was but because he finally well and truly broke the Doctor (who hadn't given up during that year) by dying and if it was all about winning for him, what is left? Unless it wasn't, and he'd have to face that and figure it out. As for the Doctor, essentially proposing to a psycho mass murderer and being willing to spend the rest of your existence with him is just a liiiittle bit insane, plus if you're already the original running type, the fact he then dies on you just to spite you isn't exactly going to confirm this ever was a good idea in any way. So I could see him going into "avoid, avoid, avoid" mode with the Master. Then of course plot would force them together, and unless you want to change the premise of the show or end it, which I can't see the BBC any time soon, they'd probably end up concluding that no, it wasn't just about winning or being the last of their kind, that they love each other, but that they still can't live with each other in any kind of sane way. (I.e. without one of them as a prisoner or forced to go against his nature.) Upon which conclusion they part in Three/Delgado!Master manner (i.e. with the Master making a getaway but the Doctor secretly or not so secretly glad of it and a last exchange of looks), and we've come full circle.

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[x-los.livejournal.com]

Oh, I read hilarious post-break-up Mutual Recognition from hell in that scene, and then baby!Master letting his plan go to hell, thrown off by the mere proximity of his ex (Do you want to rule benevolently with me?! No?! I'll ask again in Colony in Space, don't worry, just, you know, think about it...hold still while I touch you. Fine, try and walk away, I'm just going to follow you. Mmm, Doctor!shoulder...), and then Two calling in the other Time Lords on them both, with a good deal of sympathy/care for the War Cheif.

But you're right, there's something 'almost' about War Chief that doesn't quite sell me on it, and I really wish that extra 'Master' oomph was there. I think in canon it'd be more awkward for him /not/ to be the Master, though, b/c otherwise high school must have been v. Degrassi, what with Koschei and baby!War Cheif running around after sweet Theta lurve.

I know only the sketchiest outlines of what the final Delgado serial was supposed to be doing. I know there was Master death for Doctor, but does anybody have more info than that?

Of course, the whole meaning of Last of the Time Lords shifts for me in the Master had some grand escape plan all along a la the ring, and this how to write your way out of the corner opens up, b/c it's sort of more of the same if he was just playing dead rather than rejecting (finally) having the Doctor at all costs--which is something we've not seen before (it brings to mind Shalka!Master, or Sea Devils!Master--who could obviously have gotten out of that prison and into his TARDIS an age ago, who was sticking around waiting for what, more quality Doctor time? To piss him off with his little scheme? For the Doctor to break and come to him? So in canon past, we have a Master who's not necessarily objecting to being imprisoned, is confident in his ability to get out of it, and willing to confine himself to prison, or even just to Earth for months, for that matter, before LOtTL--but NOW it's untenable? ). We've seen he'd do practically /anything/ for the Doctor, but we've never before really gotten good proof of what he /isn't/ willing to do.

Mm. Full-circle thing makes much story-telling sense, but dissatisfies me emotionally. Not b/c I expected them to decide yes, they did want to do this whole thing together on-screen, but because it sort of... I dunno, does it kind of negate the entire journey if they wind up exactly where they started? It's just so futile, and for two characters so big on the whole 'exalted struggling' thing, for all that struggle to mean nothing dynamic is sort of this admission that nothing about their work has meaning, and nothing about their love is redemptive.

Re: This is all crack!theory, mind, and only one of many possible ways it could work, but...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm convinced the Master had some escape plan and did not want to genuinenly die for good. (Otherwise why not blow himself up along with the Doctor earlier on earth? Actually, the reply to that one is that it would have killed the Doctor, too, but I don't think a universe where the Doctor was around and might after a few centuries get over him if the Master really couldn't come back anymore bore thinking about for the Master.) (As my interpretation of the Mind of Evil ultimate fear is a scenario in which the Doctor just doesn't care anymore and is completely unreachable. Not even in a negative way. Which for the Master would be worse than death.) But he still got his admission and offer to share a life together from the Doctor in LOTLOL, and neither of them is going to forget that any time soon. Especially since it came before the Master was shot, not after, so can't be blamed on circumstance-of-death-heightened emotions.

Now, in fanfic and in an ideal tv world, I agree that this would had to lead to them getting out of their pattern and find some sort of coexistence, but the laws of serial tv are against it. Much like I'd say the DW narrative actually demands that the Doctor dies after 13, but no way is the BBC going to kill off their longest running cash cow on a permanent basis. For better or worse, this isn't a show a single creator owns, can control and decide, it's owned by a corporation, and corporations care about money more than about what emotionally logical storytelling demands.

On the other and less cynical hand: we might be pleasantly surprised. After all, we went from the lows of Roberts!Master (which one could be forgiven for assuming could have made it impossible to take the Master serious as a character ever again) to Jacobi and Simm and the twisted love story subtext no longer being anything sub, so who knows? Maybe a future production team will find a way to use the Master in a future story that does justice to the step taken in the latest one and still plays out on tv.