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x_losme: Decent NYtimes article on steam punk w/ some pretty pics
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blinkidybah : yeah no I thought that was cool
Actually I was surprised to see the top picture -- I've seen a fair number of Asians, but very few AA in the steam fashion comms so it's kind of a nice surprise?
Me: esp. as they have some NICE clothes!
blinkidybah : yah totally
Me: it made me realize how Andre 3000 sort of has that aesthetic come to think of it
blinkidybah : oh yeah
Man okay so nerding out time:
Me: Oh do tell
blinkidybah : like how much would I love to see somebody take a historical view and write a paper about steam punk as a "return to ritual and manners" and what about RIGHT NOW is prompting these people to do that
Because it is becoming huge in a very short time in a weird way and I don't think it's just the fashion aspect
Especially since it's so referential to the Victorian era, which was SO formalized and mannerized and all that jazz
Me: mm, I think you'd need a lot of concrete information about age, background, political breakdown of the community
blinkidybah : yeah no it would probably be a lot of mucking about in original research but I'd love to even just read some meta on it from people who are really into the community
Me: mm, see, but if it's a regressive return to social control and as sort of '*SIGH* THINGS MADE MORE SENSE BACK IN THE OLD DAYS" that would gross me out a bit, and make me feel the culture was functioning as bullshit appropriation on the level of a ren faire, a la 'social issues? What social issues? People were polite and wore teh pritteh!'
So I HOPE that's not it
blinkidybah : meh I don't even care if it is, it's not my subculture and I can appreciate the aesthetics without agreeing with what they're thinking
Like all what I've seen people say is they want to regain the sense of adventure, of new discovery and expansion and a great wide world but why the 1880-1900 period
Me: like, a conflation of the hyper-mannered Gentry behavior with Uncomplicated Good ignoring how the entire system was a stop-gap preventing the class and sex tensions from exploding...would gross me out
Mm, true, I guess 1880 would plot into Scramble for Africa and the high Brit Raj?
blinkidybah : yeah so why this period of HUGE racism and classism and sexism when there's 1) LOTS of historical periods of exploration where the people doing the adventuring/whatever were less part of the establishment and 2) the community itself seems really progressive/open/queerfriendly/etc?
Me: I would be troubled by appreciating their aesthetics as much as I do if their ideology was wikkity-wack, b/c like, for example, the Corseting not as a subversion but as an earnest gesture? WAY CREEPY
blinkidybah : well I don't think a lot of the people necessarily get wtf they're doing it
Me: you're really right, esp. as racism/classism/sexism were at a LOWER ebb before then, back in the Romantic era?
blinkidybah : yeah
Me: Yeah, but an inarticulate mass of opinion is still an ideological underpinning?
blinkidybah : oh no I know
Me: but yeah, now I crave meta!
blinkidybah : I'm just sort of fascinated by it and I want somebody to write a fucking paper for it or something
Yeah
blinkidybah : and I still wouldn't have a problem getting the pretty of the clothes/items/etc while disliking possible negative connotations though
maybe that's 'cause I've fetishized military gear/equipment for too long at this point? dunno. hm.
UM WHY ARE THESE PANTS 200 DOLLARS
Me: Is detaching military aesthetic from its violent associations sort of 1) desensitizing yourself and condoning or 2) reclaiming/neutering the violent source of the clothing, like subaltern populations claiming 'nigger' and 'queer'?
They ARE? WTF PANTS?!
blinkidybah : DUNNO
also I'm really not sure, especially since at least for me the military kink is sort of still tied into the violence/war thing, but only in the case of like, south american guerillas and countergovernment insurgencies and science fiction? I don't understand it at all but damn are camo jackets and smuggled/illegal machine guns hawt D:
me: yeah, but that's sort of anarchic leftist freedom fighting romanticism rather than lulz mah jingoizmz, let me show u them
blinkidybah : mostly it's just "IT'S A KINK W/E W/E IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE" but I've gotten pretty good at detaching aesthetic movements from the social movements they're connected to because of it
tru tru
I r not a total traitor to the left xD
me: mm. I guess though I'm interested in the mechanisms behind kinks of all kinds lately
I started to wonder abut the amount of dubious consent I'm down with in fic
blinkidybah : ahhh yeah hmm.
me: and not that I'd ever go all Dworkin about it, but it's interesting to me how I'm not like, equating slash rapefic with the HORROR I'd feel watching a porn about a similar scenario with a girl
blinkidybah : ah yeah.
me: but then, if I read a rapefic it would have emotional connotations for at least one of the characters that such a video wouldn't, in all liklihood
blinkidybah : well I think it sort of elevates issues of consent and power structures and sex and all that above the patriarchal influences that we have to work under that would ruin it?
I dunno like I won't read rapefic with women getting raped
me: yeah, I dunno that I have either?
blinkidybah : and I think at some level it's all, "lulz take that menfolks" which is kind of idiotic but w/e
hurting fictional boys to get my lulz is so far below anything that happens in the real world on the horrible scale that I can't bring myself to care that it's a dumb reason
also it's hawt so.
me: well, no, really? how idiotic is it? I mean not as a sort of radical feminist gesture, but if current structures of pornography are so not geared to/unsatisfying for women, then radically re-imagining it, and stepping outside of the patriarchal binary where there's not that accumulated weight and personal 'I as a woman am writing about a woman having sex, thus it will reflect my patriarchal sexual reality almost immediately' complication seems like a fine way of going about it
thus the extremes you go to are fundamentally ABOUT characterization, rather than the detached, amorphous force of Rape or Whatever
blinkidybah : yeah
well I think I separate the desire to move out of the rape culture in order to sort of re-imagine a situation where this can be porn and not some power fantasy being pressed down onto us and the lack of guilt I have over writing that rapefic, at least in terms of some sort of sympathy for the character in question
if that makes sense
the former is perfectly understandable but I do think my justifications for not being like, "aw, poor so-and-so, I'm a dick" are dumb.
me: I get the first one totally, but I'm a little unclear on the second, re: writing it?
blinkidybah : well like theoretically you should feel bad for your characters when you do horrible things to them? (not just rapefic, but w/e)
...or should you? maybe this is not a concern most people have
me: I dunno, actually? I feel worse for a character in emotional pain than one being hurt/raped, perhaps because the second type of pain is 1) distant when you're cozily pounding ot fic on a mac and 2) less a part of my experience--and I mean, Kim could smack and throw stuff, so it's not like I'm completely insensitive to the politics of physical abuse, it's just that regardless of that--remember that bit of New Dawn Fades with Simm!Master torturing Jack? Admittedly, I kind of dislike Jack and have deep affection for Master (though not so much her version of him, weirdly)? But: I felt worse for Master's emotional hurt than Jack's pretty grotesque torture. And I wonder if that's me, or a function of the act of reading, or everybody?
blinkidybah : well I'd equate rape with emotional torture more than physical abuse
me: I think that's a function of how it's written?
blinkidybah : ah tru mebbe.
well IN MY stories let's say.
which nao we are getting into ridiculous specifics and sort of out of the realm of usefulness
me: Like, is the character in question someone with a history of any kind with their rapist? Are they taking this act as a violation of that? Or is it some random person and thus a physical act of violence? It also depends heavily on the use of force vs. cohesion, whether it's an act of physical vs. emotional violence?
Primarily, I mean, obvs. it's both, on a basic level
And then here's a really good answer to the steampunk question byprettyarbitrary.
blinkidybah : yeah no I thought that was coolActually I was surprised to see the top picture -- I've seen a fair number of Asians, but very few AA in the steam fashion comms so it's kind of a nice surprise?
Me: esp. as they have some NICE clothes!
blinkidybah : yah totallyMe: it made me realize how Andre 3000 sort of has that aesthetic come to think of it
blinkidybah : oh yeahMan okay so nerding out time:
Me: Oh do tell
blinkidybah : like how much would I love to see somebody take a historical view and write a paper about steam punk as a "return to ritual and manners" and what about RIGHT NOW is prompting these people to do thatBecause it is becoming huge in a very short time in a weird way and I don't think it's just the fashion aspect
Especially since it's so referential to the Victorian era, which was SO formalized and mannerized and all that jazz
Me: mm, I think you'd need a lot of concrete information about age, background, political breakdown of the community
blinkidybah : yeah no it would probably be a lot of mucking about in original research but I'd love to even just read some meta on it from people who are really into the communityMe: mm, see, but if it's a regressive return to social control and as sort of '*SIGH* THINGS MADE MORE SENSE BACK IN THE OLD DAYS" that would gross me out a bit, and make me feel the culture was functioning as bullshit appropriation on the level of a ren faire, a la 'social issues? What social issues? People were polite and wore teh pritteh!'
So I HOPE that's not it
blinkidybah : meh I don't even care if it is, it's not my subculture and I can appreciate the aesthetics without agreeing with what they're thinkingLike all what I've seen people say is they want to regain the sense of adventure, of new discovery and expansion and a great wide world but why the 1880-1900 period
Me: like, a conflation of the hyper-mannered Gentry behavior with Uncomplicated Good ignoring how the entire system was a stop-gap preventing the class and sex tensions from exploding...would gross me out
Mm, true, I guess 1880 would plot into Scramble for Africa and the high Brit Raj?
blinkidybah : yeah so why this period of HUGE racism and classism and sexism when there's 1) LOTS of historical periods of exploration where the people doing the adventuring/whatever were less part of the establishment and 2) the community itself seems really progressive/open/queerfriendly/etc?Me: I would be troubled by appreciating their aesthetics as much as I do if their ideology was wikkity-wack, b/c like, for example, the Corseting not as a subversion but as an earnest gesture? WAY CREEPY
blinkidybah : well I don't think a lot of the people necessarily get wtf they're doing itMe: you're really right, esp. as racism/classism/sexism were at a LOWER ebb before then, back in the Romantic era?
blinkidybah : yeahMe: Yeah, but an inarticulate mass of opinion is still an ideological underpinning?
blinkidybah : oh no I knowMe: but yeah, now I crave meta!
blinkidybah : I'm just sort of fascinated by it and I want somebody to write a fucking paper for it or somethingYeah
blinkidybah : and I still wouldn't have a problem getting the pretty of the clothes/items/etc while disliking possible negative connotations thoughmaybe that's 'cause I've fetishized military gear/equipment for too long at this point? dunno. hm.
UM WHY ARE THESE PANTS 200 DOLLARS
Me: Is detaching military aesthetic from its violent associations sort of 1) desensitizing yourself and condoning or 2) reclaiming/neutering the violent source of the clothing, like subaltern populations claiming 'nigger' and 'queer'?
They ARE? WTF PANTS?!
blinkidybah : DUNNOalso I'm really not sure, especially since at least for me the military kink is sort of still tied into the violence/war thing, but only in the case of like, south american guerillas and countergovernment insurgencies and science fiction? I don't understand it at all but damn are camo jackets and smuggled/illegal machine guns hawt D:
me: yeah, but that's sort of anarchic leftist freedom fighting romanticism rather than lulz mah jingoizmz, let me show u them
blinkidybah : mostly it's just "IT'S A KINK W/E W/E IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE" but I've gotten pretty good at detaching aesthetic movements from the social movements they're connected to because of ittru tru
I r not a total traitor to the left xD
me: mm. I guess though I'm interested in the mechanisms behind kinks of all kinds lately
I started to wonder abut the amount of dubious consent I'm down with in fic
blinkidybah : ahhh yeah hmm.me: and not that I'd ever go all Dworkin about it, but it's interesting to me how I'm not like, equating slash rapefic with the HORROR I'd feel watching a porn about a similar scenario with a girl
blinkidybah : ah yeah.me: but then, if I read a rapefic it would have emotional connotations for at least one of the characters that such a video wouldn't, in all liklihood
blinkidybah : well I think it sort of elevates issues of consent and power structures and sex and all that above the patriarchal influences that we have to work under that would ruin it?I dunno like I won't read rapefic with women getting raped
me: yeah, I dunno that I have either?
blinkidybah : and I think at some level it's all, "lulz take that menfolks" which is kind of idiotic but w/ehurting fictional boys to get my lulz is so far below anything that happens in the real world on the horrible scale that I can't bring myself to care that it's a dumb reason
also it's hawt so.
me: well, no, really? how idiotic is it? I mean not as a sort of radical feminist gesture, but if current structures of pornography are so not geared to/unsatisfying for women, then radically re-imagining it, and stepping outside of the patriarchal binary where there's not that accumulated weight and personal 'I as a woman am writing about a woman having sex, thus it will reflect my patriarchal sexual reality almost immediately' complication seems like a fine way of going about it
thus the extremes you go to are fundamentally ABOUT characterization, rather than the detached, amorphous force of Rape or Whatever
blinkidybah : yeahwell I think I separate the desire to move out of the rape culture in order to sort of re-imagine a situation where this can be porn and not some power fantasy being pressed down onto us and the lack of guilt I have over writing that rapefic, at least in terms of some sort of sympathy for the character in question
if that makes sense
the former is perfectly understandable but I do think my justifications for not being like, "aw, poor so-and-so, I'm a dick" are dumb.
me: I get the first one totally, but I'm a little unclear on the second, re: writing it?
blinkidybah : well like theoretically you should feel bad for your characters when you do horrible things to them? (not just rapefic, but w/e)...or should you? maybe this is not a concern most people have
me: I dunno, actually? I feel worse for a character in emotional pain than one being hurt/raped, perhaps because the second type of pain is 1) distant when you're cozily pounding ot fic on a mac and 2) less a part of my experience--and I mean, Kim could smack and throw stuff, so it's not like I'm completely insensitive to the politics of physical abuse, it's just that regardless of that--remember that bit of New Dawn Fades with Simm!Master torturing Jack? Admittedly, I kind of dislike Jack and have deep affection for Master (though not so much her version of him, weirdly)? But: I felt worse for Master's emotional hurt than Jack's pretty grotesque torture. And I wonder if that's me, or a function of the act of reading, or everybody?
blinkidybah : well I'd equate rape with emotional torture more than physical abuseme: I think that's a function of how it's written?
blinkidybah : ah tru mebbe.well IN MY stories let's say.
which nao we are getting into ridiculous specifics and sort of out of the realm of usefulness
me: Like, is the character in question someone with a history of any kind with their rapist? Are they taking this act as a violation of that? Or is it some random person and thus a physical act of violence? It also depends heavily on the use of force vs. cohesion, whether it's an act of physical vs. emotional violence?
Primarily, I mean, obvs. it's both, on a basic level
And then here's a really good answer to the steampunk question by
prettyarbitrary. 
